[Rockhounds] Civilization

Tue Oct 4 04:25:55 PDT 2022

>>>>" rm for being civilized is being equal to Feynman, we are not civilized."
<<<<<maybe not but we do have general intelligence. We aren't one trick ponies
like your parrots and jackdaws. And Feynman was a human and so were
Leibniz, Einstein, Fermi, Browning and many others. No jackdaws in that
crowd.
And did your high IQ reptiles exist without hands? Fire? Did they live in
caves, where? 

Do you really believe that people like Leibniz, Einstein, Fermi walked among the early humans from which we descent? 
You picked all male geniuses... let me add Maria Sklodowska, Jennifer Doudna, Katherine Johnson (and many more) for good measure.
The pinnacle of a civilization is not found in the achievements of a few extraordinary individuals, but in de average performance of all its members. 
Some of us cling to the idea that you have to be "white and male" to be civilized. You can't discuss with people like that.
It's the same with this topic... It takes some stretching of ideas, but I find the result rewarding.

Axel

““There exists a law…inborn of our hearts…by natural intuition. … If our
lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any
and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.””
Cicero

J Bryan Krämer       North Florida, USA
photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner

On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 5:00 PM <axel.emmermann at telenet.be> wrote:

> If the norm for being civilized is being equal to Feynman, we are not
> civilized.
> Civil behaviour is not measured by the number of geniuses...
> Look at jackdaws, they can use tools and they live in close groups. If one
> of them dies, the whole community mourns, and they all go pay their
> respects at the dead bird's corps. So, they seem to understand death, which
> is a deeply abstract thing. They lack opposable thumbs and perhaps the
> sounds they make don't qualify as language but given time they could very
> well evolve to something we recognize as a civilization. They are more than
> halfway there! They just need to fill in some details.
>
> You wrote:
> >>> they lack multitudes of other essential human abilities.
>
> This is where I believe you go wrong ;-)
> Who says that any lifeform would need multitudes of essential human
> abilities to qualify as civilized??? That is clearly anthropocentric
> thinking... we are the norm from which no deviation is allowed.
>
> Cheers
> Axel
>
>
> Axel Emmermann
> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> Mineralogical Society of Antwerp
> Werkgroep Fluorescerende mineralen
> Workgroup Fluorescent Minerals
> [ http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html |
> http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html ]
> Bezoek Minerant 6 & 7 mei 2023
> 10-18 u in Antwerp Expo Center
>
> ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> Van: "J Bryan Kramer" <codeburner at gmail.com>
> Aan: "Rockhounds at drizzle.com" <rockhounds at rockhounds.drizzle.com>
> Verzonden: Maandag 3 oktober 2022 21:54:19
> Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Civilization
>
> Well sure dogs can learn some words in context, I think I've heard about
> 600 words or so on genius level dogs. But if your kid had a 600 word
> vocabulary at age 10 or so, people would not call her a genius. Dogs also
> lake situational memory, their sense of geometry is limited and they lack
> multitudes of other essential human abilities.
>
> Just pointing out that some critter has some limited mental ability does
> not make them another Feynman. Fine a critter that can do tensor calculus,
> build a steel girder bridge and compose Sonnets then let me know.
>
> ““There exists a law…inborn of our hearts…by natural intuition. … If our
> lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any
> and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.””
> Cicero
>
> J Bryan Krämer       North Florida, USA
> photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 11:50 AM <axel.emmermann at telenet.be> wrote:
>
> > >>>We intelligent reptiles would need room in their skulls for the higher
> > >>>brain lobes. Which so far as I know have not be found.
> >
> > Parrots have self-awareness and can build up quite a nice vocabulary.
> They
> > also tend to use those words in the right context. They have tiny brains.
> > Same with dogs... a German Shepard can learn more than a thousand words!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Axel Emmermann
> > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > Mineralogical Society of Antwerp
> > Werkgroep Fluorescerende mineralen
> > Workgroup Fluorescent Minerals
> > [ http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html |
> > http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html ]
> > Bezoek Minerant 6 & 7 mei 2023
> > 10-18 u in Antwerp Expo Center
> >
> > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> > Van: "J Bryan Kramer" <codeburner at gmail.com>
> > Aan: "Rockhounds at drizzle.com" <rockhounds at rockhounds.drizzle.com>
> > Verzonden: Maandag 3 oktober 2022 17:41:08
> > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Civilization
> >
> > We intelligent reptiles would need room in their skulls for the higher
> > brain lobes. Which so far as I know have not be found. And reptiles use
> the
> > same biology as we do and so the idea that they have some mysterious way
> to
> > get around this is unlikely to say the least. Remember what, I think
> > Asimove said: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"
> >
> > Nope it was Sagan/Laplace:
> >  “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” was a phrase made
> > popular by Carl Sagan who reworded Laplace's principle, which says that
> > “*the
> > weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its
> > strangeness*”
> >
> > ““There exists a law…inborn of our hearts…by natural intuition. … If our
> > lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies,
> any
> > and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.””
> > Cicero
> >
> > J Bryan Krämer       North Florida, USA
> > photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 10:46 PM Edward Tindell <ed-tindell at sprynet.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I ran across this and thought it might be interesting:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                 "Years ago, anthropologist Margaret Mead was asked by a
> > > student what she considered to be the first sign of civilization in a
> > > culture. The student expected Mead to talk about fishhooks or clay pots
> > or
> > > grinding stones. But no. Mead said that the first sign of civilization
> in
> > > an
> > > ancient culture was a femur (thighbone) that had been broken and then
> > > healed. Mead explained that in the animal kingdom, if you break your
> leg,
> > > you die. You cannot run from danger, get to the river for a drink or
> hunt
> > > for food. You are meat for prowling beasts. No animal survives a broken
> > leg
> > > long enough for the bone to heal. A broken femur that has healed is
> > > evidence
> > > that someone has taken time to stay with the one who fell, has bound up
> > the
> > > wound, has carried the person to safety and has tended the person
> through
> > > recovery. Helping someone else through difficulty is where civilization
> > > starts, Mead said."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rockhounds mailing list
> > > Subscription Services:
> > >
> >
> http://rockhounds.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds_rockhounds.drizzle.com
> > > List Usage Policy:
> > > http://Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Rockhounds/Rockhounds.shtml
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds mailing list
> > Subscription Services:
> >
> http://rockhounds.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds_rockhounds.drizzle.com
> > List Usage Policy:
> > http://Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Rockhounds/Rockhounds.shtml
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds mailing list
> > Subscription Services:
> >
> http://rockhounds.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds_rockhounds.drizzle.com
> > List Usage Policy:
> > http://Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Rockhounds/Rockhounds.shtml
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds mailing list
> Subscription Services:
> http://rockhounds.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds_rockhounds.drizzle.com
> List Usage Policy:
> http://Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Rockhounds/Rockhounds.shtml
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds mailing list
> Subscription Services:
> http://rockhounds.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds_rockhounds.drizzle.com
> List Usage Policy:
> http://Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Rockhounds/Rockhounds.shtml
>
_______________________________________________
Rockhounds mailing list
Subscription Services:  http://rockhounds.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds_rockhounds.drizzle.com
List Usage Policy: http://Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Rockhounds/Rockhounds.shtml