[Rockhounds] Civilization

Tue Oct 4 12:48:59 PDT 2022

" Do you really believe that people like Leibniz, Einstein, Fermi walked
among the early human"

Yes, why do you think early Homo Sapiens had a lower IQ capacity? I'm sure
there were early geniuses, but society of their time could not support
someone being a full time investigator. It take considerable excess food
production in order to do that.
As for women geniues I listed Elizabeth Browning:

" I love thee to the level of every day's
Most quiet need, by sun and candle-light.
I love thee freely, as men strive for right."

I am no fan of Curie, read about what she knowingly did to her lab
assistants. And otherwise she was just a competent chemist who had a good
idea, or her husband did. There were a number of chemists who were filling
in empty spots on the Periodic Table at the time. None were 5s geniuses so
far as I know. Feynman, Fermi and Einstein were in a different class. *But
their society must prepare a spot for such people. The Greeks were the
first in western history to do so*.

I might see Lise Meitner in the list tho I don't know much about her. The
second name is just a biochemist and I didn't check the last one. And there
was one top level women mathematician in Germany around that time who also
never got full recognition. Ah yes Amalie *Emmy Noether*  very important in
Abstract Algebra.

*But none of this woke diversion advances your intelligent lizard
hypotesis.*

““There exists a law…inborn of our hearts…by natural intuition. … If our
lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any
and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.””
Cicero

J Bryan Krämer       North Florida, USA
photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner

On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 6:28 AM <axel.emmermann at telenet.be> wrote:

>
> >>>>" rm for being civilized is being equal to Feynman, we are not
> civilized."
> <<<<<maybe not but we do have general intelligence. We aren't one trick
> ponies
> like your parrots and jackdaws. And Feynman was a human and so were
> Leibniz, Einstein, Fermi, Browning and many others. No jackdaws in that
> crowd.
> And did your high IQ reptiles exist without hands? Fire? Did they live in
> caves, where?
>
> Do you really believe that people like Leibniz, Einstein, Fermi walked
> among the early humans from which we descent?
> You picked all male geniuses... let me add Maria Sklodowska, Jennifer
> Doudna, Katherine Johnson (and many more) for good measure.
> The pinnacle of a civilization is not found in the achievements of a few
> extraordinary individuals, but in de average performance of all its
> members.
> Some of us cling to the idea that you have to be "white and male" to be
> civilized. You can't discuss with people like that.
> It's the same with this topic... It takes some stretching of ideas, but I
> find the result rewarding.
>
> Axel
>
>
> ““There exists a law…inborn of our hearts…by natural intuition. … If our
> lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any
> and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.””
> Cicero
>
> J Bryan Krämer       North Florida, USA
> photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 5:00 PM <axel.emmermann at telenet.be> wrote:
>
> > If the norm for being civilized is being equal to Feynman, we are not
> > civilized.
> > Civil behaviour is not measured by the number of geniuses...
> > Look at jackdaws, they can use tools and they live in close groups. If
> one
> > of them dies, the whole community mourns, and they all go pay their
> > respects at the dead bird's corps. So, they seem to understand death,
> which
> > is a deeply abstract thing. They lack opposable thumbs and perhaps the
> > sounds they make don't qualify as language but given time they could very
> > well evolve to something we recognize as a civilization. They are more
> than
> > halfway there! They just need to fill in some details.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > >>> they lack multitudes of other essential human abilities.
> >
> > This is where I believe you go wrong ;-)
> > Who says that any lifeform would need multitudes of essential human
> > abilities to qualify as civilized??? That is clearly anthropocentric
> > thinking... we are the norm from which no deviation is allowed.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Axel
> >
> >
> > Axel Emmermann
> > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > Mineralogical Society of Antwerp
> > Werkgroep Fluorescerende mineralen
> > Workgroup Fluorescent Minerals
> > [ http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html |
> > http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html ]
> > Bezoek Minerant 6 & 7 mei 2023
> > 10-18 u in Antwerp Expo Center
> >
> > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> > Van: "J Bryan Kramer" <codeburner at gmail.com>
> > Aan: "Rockhounds at drizzle.com" <rockhounds at rockhounds.drizzle.com>
> > Verzonden: Maandag 3 oktober 2022 21:54:19
> > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Civilization
> >
> > Well sure dogs can learn some words in context, I think I've heard about
> > 600 words or so on genius level dogs. But if your kid had a 600 word
> > vocabulary at age 10 or so, people would not call her a genius. Dogs also
> > lake situational memory, their sense of geometry is limited and they lack
> > multitudes of other essential human abilities.
> >
> > Just pointing out that some critter has some limited mental ability does
> > not make them another Feynman. Fine a critter that can do tensor
> calculus,
> > build a steel girder bridge and compose Sonnets then let me know.
> >
> > ““There exists a law…inborn of our hearts…by natural intuition. … If our
> > lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies,
> any
> > and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.””
> > Cicero
> >
> > J Bryan Krämer       North Florida, USA
> > photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 11:50 AM <axel.emmermann at telenet.be> wrote:
> >
> > > >>>We intelligent reptiles would need room in their skulls for the
> higher
> > > >>>brain lobes. Which so far as I know have not be found.
> > >
> > > Parrots have self-awareness and can build up quite a nice vocabulary.
> > They
> > > also tend to use those words in the right context. They have tiny
> brains.
> > > Same with dogs... a German Shepard can learn more than a thousand
> words!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Axel Emmermann
> > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > Mineralogical Society of Antwerp
> > > Werkgroep Fluorescerende mineralen
> > > Workgroup Fluorescent Minerals
> > > [ http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html |
> > > http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html ]
> > > Bezoek Minerant 6 & 7 mei 2023
> > > 10-18 u in Antwerp Expo Center
> > >
> > > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> > > Van: "J Bryan Kramer" <codeburner at gmail.com>
> > > Aan: "Rockhounds at drizzle.com" <rockhounds at rockhounds.drizzle.com>
> > > Verzonden: Maandag 3 oktober 2022 17:41:08
> > > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Civilization
> > >
> > > We intelligent reptiles would need room in their skulls for the higher
> > > brain lobes. Which so far as I know have not be found. And reptiles use
> > the
> > > same biology as we do and so the idea that they have some mysterious
> way
> > to
> > > get around this is unlikely to say the least. Remember what, I think
> > > Asimove said: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"
> > >
> > > Nope it was Sagan/Laplace:
> > >  “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” was a phrase
> made
> > > popular by Carl Sagan who reworded Laplace's principle, which says that
> > > “*the
> > > weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to
> its
> > > strangeness*”
> > >
> > > ““There exists a law…inborn of our hearts…by natural intuition. … If
> our
> > > lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies,
> > any
> > > and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.””
> > > Cicero
> > >
> > > J Bryan Krämer       North Florida, USA
> > > photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 10:46 PM Edward Tindell <ed-tindell at sprynet.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I ran across this and thought it might be interesting:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >                 "Years ago, anthropologist Margaret Mead was asked
> by a
> > > > student what she considered to be the first sign of civilization in a
> > > > culture. The student expected Mead to talk about fishhooks or clay
> pots
> > > or
> > > > grinding stones. But no. Mead said that the first sign of
> civilization
> > in
> > > > an
> > > > ancient culture was a femur (thighbone) that had been broken and then
> > > > healed. Mead explained that in the animal kingdom, if you break your
> > leg,
> > > > you die. You cannot run from danger, get to the river for a drink or
> > hunt
> > > > for food. You are meat for prowling beasts. No animal survives a
> broken
> > > leg
> > > > long enough for the bone to heal. A broken femur that has healed is
> > > > evidence
> > > > that someone has taken time to stay with the one who fell, has bound
> up
> > > the
> > > > wound, has carried the person to safety and has tended the person
> > through
> > > > recovery. Helping someone else through difficulty is where
> civilization
> > > > starts, Mead said."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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