[Rockhounds] Civilization

Mon Oct 3 18:27:27 PDT 2022

Cabe? Electwicity?  What por?  I chew big hole in twee I hab you know senor!

On 10/3/22 7:41 PM, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> " rm for being civilized is being equal to Feynman, we are not civilized."
> maybe not but we do have general intelligence. We aren't one trick ponies
> like your parrots and jackdaws. And Feynman was a human and so were
> Leibniz, Einstein, Fermi, Browning and many others. No jackdaws in that
> crowd.
> And did your high IQ reptiles exist without hands? Fire? Did they live in
> caves, where? You might have better luck with Cephalopods.
>
> ““There exists a law…inborn of our hearts…by natural intuition. … If our
> lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any
> and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.””
> Cicero
>
> J Bryan Krämer       North Florida, USA
> photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 5:00 PM <axel.emmermann at telenet.be> wrote:
>
>> If the norm for being civilized is being equal to Feynman, we are not
>> civilized.
>> Civil behaviour is not measured by the number of geniuses...
>> Look at jackdaws, they can use tools and they live in close groups. If one
>> of them dies, the whole community mourns, and they all go pay their
>> respects at the dead bird's corps. So, they seem to understand death, which
>> is a deeply abstract thing. They lack opposable thumbs and perhaps the
>> sounds they make don't qualify as language but given time they could very
>> well evolve to something we recognize as a civilization. They are more than
>> halfway there! They just need to fill in some details.
>>
>> You wrote:
>>>>> they lack multitudes of other essential human abilities.
>> This is where I believe you go wrong ;-)
>> Who says that any lifeform would need multitudes of essential human
>> abilities to qualify as civilized??? That is clearly anthropocentric
>> thinking... we are the norm from which no deviation is allowed.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Axel
>>
>>
>> Axel Emmermann
>> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
>> Mineralogical Society of Antwerp
>> Werkgroep Fluorescerende mineralen
>> Workgroup Fluorescent Minerals
>> [ http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html |
>> http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html ]
>> Bezoek Minerant 6 & 7 mei 2023
>> 10-18 u in Antwerp Expo Center
>>
>> ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
>> Van: "J Bryan Kramer" <codeburner at gmail.com>
>> Aan: "Rockhounds at drizzle.com" <rockhounds at rockhounds.drizzle.com>
>> Verzonden: Maandag 3 oktober 2022 21:54:19
>> Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Civilization
>>
>> Well sure dogs can learn some words in context, I think I've heard about
>> 600 words or so on genius level dogs. But if your kid had a 600 word
>> vocabulary at age 10 or so, people would not call her a genius. Dogs also
>> lake situational memory, their sense of geometry is limited and they lack
>> multitudes of other essential human abilities.
>>
>> Just pointing out that some critter has some limited mental ability does
>> not make them another Feynman. Fine a critter that can do tensor calculus,
>> build a steel girder bridge and compose Sonnets then let me know.
>>
>> ““There exists a law…inborn of our hearts…by natural intuition. … If our
>> lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any
>> and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.””
>> Cicero
>>
>> J Bryan Krämer       North Florida, USA
>> photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2022 at 11:50 AM <axel.emmermann at telenet.be> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> We intelligent reptiles would need room in their skulls for the higher
>>>>>> brain lobes. Which so far as I know have not be found.
>>> Parrots have self-awareness and can build up quite a nice vocabulary.
>> They
>>> also tend to use those words in the right context. They have tiny brains.
>>> Same with dogs... a German Shepard can learn more than a thousand words!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Axel Emmermann
>>> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
>>> Mineralogical Society of Antwerp
>>> Werkgroep Fluorescerende mineralen
>>> Workgroup Fluorescent Minerals
>>> [ http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html |
>>> http://fluo.mineralogie.be/index.html ]
>>> Bezoek Minerant 6 & 7 mei 2023
>>> 10-18 u in Antwerp Expo Center
>>>
>>> ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
>>> Van: "J Bryan Kramer" <codeburner at gmail.com>
>>> Aan: "Rockhounds at drizzle.com" <rockhounds at rockhounds.drizzle.com>
>>> Verzonden: Maandag 3 oktober 2022 17:41:08
>>> Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Civilization
>>>
>>> We intelligent reptiles would need room in their skulls for the higher
>>> brain lobes. Which so far as I know have not be found. And reptiles use
>> the
>>> same biology as we do and so the idea that they have some mysterious way
>> to
>>> get around this is unlikely to say the least. Remember what, I think
>>> Asimove said: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"
>>>
>>> Nope it was Sagan/Laplace:
>>>   “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” was a phrase made
>>> popular by Carl Sagan who reworded Laplace's principle, which says that
>>> “*the
>>> weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its
>>> strangeness*”
>>>
>>> ““There exists a law…inborn of our hearts…by natural intuition. … If our
>>> lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies,
>> any
>>> and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.””
>>> Cicero
>>>
>>> J Bryan Krämer       North Florida, USA
>>> photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 10:46 PM Edward Tindell <ed-tindell at sprynet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I ran across this and thought it might be interesting:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                  "Years ago, anthropologist Margaret Mead was asked by a
>>>> student what she considered to be the first sign of civilization in a
>>>> culture. The student expected Mead to talk about fishhooks or clay pots
>>> or
>>>> grinding stones. But no. Mead said that the first sign of civilization
>> in
>>>> an
>>>> ancient culture was a femur (thighbone) that had been broken and then
>>>> healed. Mead explained that in the animal kingdom, if you break your
>> leg,
>>>> you die. You cannot run from danger, get to the river for a drink or
>> hunt
>>>> for food. You are meat for prowling beasts. No animal survives a broken
>>> leg
>>>> long enough for the bone to heal. A broken femur that has healed is
>>>> evidence
>>>> that someone has taken time to stay with the one who fell, has bound up
>>> the
>>>> wound, has carried the person to safety and has tended the person
>> through
>>>> recovery. Helping someone else through difficulty is where civilization
>>>> starts, Mead said."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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